Another of These Man-Dinosaur Ones

You may remember the DpSU from last week covered in The Extinction of the Megafauna, when Brian Thomas argued that humans lived with dinosaurs. Today – in Bird Fossils Offer Clues to Dinosaur Question – he tries the same thing.

Map of the World, during the Late Cretaceous

According to Genesis, all creatures of the earth were created within days of each other—including dinosaurs and humans. A common question in response to this is “If dinosaurs and man lived at the same time, why aren’t their fossils found together?”

Yes, yes – Question Creationism! This is one of the completely arbitrary – but high – number of Questions Creationists Can’t Answer.

Bird bones and egg shell fossil fragments from a waterside bird colony are sending clues from the long-ago past to help solve this quandary.

The fossilized colony found in Romania was apparently a victim of a watery disaster. Despite their toothed beaks and small claws, the birds looked very much like modern water fowl. The Cretaceous strata in which they were found also contained herbivorous dinosaurs and other creatures.

Indeed, water was involved here. The implication is that the event was the result of the Flood – that doesn’t really stack with this paragraph from the Discovery News article that seems to be the only source for the story:

“Because the fossil assemblage consists only of eggshell fragments, eggs and bird bones, it is most likely that the flooding was actually a quick ‘swamping’ or ‘drowning’ where the water from the river rose by, say, a foot or two,” Naish said, explaining that “it was not a massive tidal wave-style event, but most like a tidal bore-style flooding.”

Additionally, B.T. is basing his assertion that the birds “looked very much like modern water fowl” on a picture accompanying the article that is a “Reconstruction of the Early Cretaceous (~110-115 million year old) amphibious bird Gansus yumenensis which may resemble the Transylvania Dinosaur-Era bird.” (emphasis added) Also, there’s this quote from the article that may be quite relevent:

Co-author Darren Naish, a vertebrate paleontologist at the University of Southampton, told Discovery News that the birds “would have looked peculiar to modern eyes.” In addition to their toothiness, they had “a heavier looking tail.”

And also, his (presumably correct) claim that “the Cretaceous strata in which they were found also contained herbivorous dinosaurs and other creatures” seems to have no source – what about the carnivorous Dinosaurs? Back to B.T.

The remains were found “buried under layers of sediment,” and according to Naish, “the flooding was actually a quick ‘swamping’ or ‘drowning.'” Ducks can fly faster than 60 miles per hour, so if the extinct birds were anything like ducks, the mud waters that buried them must have moved significantly faster.

It does not follow that the water must have travelled faster than 60 mph, nor even that it needed to be muddy. Remember the eggshell fragments quote above? Only some of the adults were drowned, for one thing.

Naish explained that the ancient catastrophe overtook “cow-sized plant-eating dinosaurs, a bird-like predatory dinosaur known as Balaur, rodent-like mammals, and one of the world’s largest pterosaurs,” since their remains appear together. (Despite this assertion, Balaur was not actually bird-like.) Considering the natures of these various creatures, it makes sense that they lived in or near a swamp with plenty of water and vegetation.

He didn’t actually say that – the real paragraph is as follows: (with my emphasis)

He explained that the birds’ ecosystem included dwarf cow-sized plant-eating dinosaurs, a bird-like predatory dinosaur known as Balaur, rodent-like mammals, and one of the world’s largest pterosaurs that stood about 10 feet tall at the shoulder and had a 33-foot wingspan.

You can see how Brian is twisting the facts to support the Flood. The reference for Balaur not being bird-like is an old DpSU called Newfound Kickboxing Dinosaur Has Puzzling History, which aside from being generally crappy does not actually support that claim. But there’s your carnivorous dinosaur anyway. As for his “lived in or near a swamp” this has numerous problems.

For one, remember how he was trying to spin that all those animals were found together? In fact, they’re the known animals from Romania at the time, which was then a large island as you can see in the map above. The island thing is also the explanation for the peculiarities of the animals there. In short, he can hardly be claiming that the whole island was a swamp.

Also, how can he distinguish from those descriptions between a swamp and a savannah? And do birds in swamps nest next to rivers? It just doesn’t stack up.

Similarly swampy menageries characterize many Cretaceous fossil sites. For example, one study of fossilized dinosaur skin stated that the Lance Formation in North America contained “remains of cartilaginous and bony fishes, amphibians, champsosaurs, turtles, lizards, snakes, crocodilians, pterosaurs, dinosaurs, birds, and mammals.”

That’s ecosystems for you – bleeding menageries.

Also, an inventory of fossils in the Straight Cliffs Formation at the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument in Utah reported “plants, petrified wood, leaves, carbonized wood, pollen, corals, bryozoans, snails, clams, ammonoids, sharks, fish, salamanders, frogs, turtles, lizards, crocodiles, pterosaurs, dinosaurs, [and] mammals.” The researchers also reported fossilized birds in the layers above.

And…

From these and similar assemblages, it appears that fast-moving mud overtook beasts and birds that lived in or near water.If people existed at that time, why aren’t they found with these fossils? Humans probably would not have wanted to live in swampy conditions with some of those creatures—such as crocodiles, pterodactyls, dinosaurs, and even colonies of water fowl—so it makes sense that their remains wouldn’t appear in the same places.

Wouldn’t they? The implication of this is that nothing that doesn’t live in swamps would be found in layers without humans, that all dinosaurs lived in swamps… It’s just absurd, and without basis in reality.

According to the Bible’s reliable history, dinosaurs and man did live at the same time. The large dinosaurs would have been some of the “great beasts” created on Day Six of the creation week, and one of them must have been in Job’s vicinity after the Flood, since God told him to “behold now behemoth, which I made with thee.”

Ah, the behemoth, which is only a dinosaur if you allow your mind to fill in the gaps in the description in that way.

Many of the creatures, like mammals and birds, that appear with dinosaurs in fossil graveyards are still around today. And until there’s hard evidence proving otherwise, science shouldn’t ignore the likelihood that humans lived at the same time as dinosaurs, but in more hospitable places.

It’s too late at night to find the “hard evidence” for non-coexistence – it will suffice to say that, once again, he got nothing.

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5 thoughts on “Another of These Man-Dinosaur Ones

  1. Hi – you are dead right, my quotes (and other quotes from the piece about the Romanian nesting site) have been twisted out of context by Thomas. We found evidence for a drowned nest colony, but the flood event concerned was a small, local event similar to the sort you can see at any reasonably big river in the modern world – it wasn’t a major catastrophe, and (so far as we know) it only affected the bird colony nesting at the side of the river – to say that other animals known from the same area (Balaur, various herbivorous dinosaurs etc.) were affected is just a lie. Thanks for your coverage, and for arguing against creationist interpretations.

    • So that’s who you are – I should have done a little more research… And thank you.
      This particular article included far more of the actual twisting than is normal – more usually he just misinterprets or disagrees with studies, rather than outright quote-mining. But you’re hardly the first person to find their work being bent for Mr Thomas’ purposes.

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